Curse

sleazeh · Jan 18, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

To echo (an alarmingly low number to date) of points made as to why the Lieutenant Helm WILL be removed....

-warriors have always been, when played effectively, the most consistent source of dps pressure in pvp. In order to maintain balance, traditional warrior counters such as hexes and conditions were provided. The helm in question is so effective at taking the bite out of anti-warrior hexes that it becomes pointless to build anti-warrior hex removal into a team build, thereby freeing up skill slots, effort, energy, etc into other team contribution.

-the fact that this helm, itself, I would argue, overpowered, is available to only pve characters is problematic in terms of equity and balance between the two camps of pvp/pve

If anyone who posts here actually watched the GWWC matches (with an obvious nod of respect to those here who played in them), you would have noticed not only a preponderance of warrior heavy builds, but also, as noted above, an awful lot of pve characters being used. Now..I wonder why that is, considering how much time and money is required on the part of a pve player to even approximate the effectiveness of a pvp character, from an equipment point of view?

Surely Big McHugelarge (or was it Ima Paladin?) wearing pve armor, carrying a tanzits defender, and having a concealed helm, is not done for vanity reasons.* Reducing blind duration by 33% and hex duration by 50% is so...dramatic...an advantage that it baffles me as to why anyone would comment that it does not require rebalancing or removal.

I don't have the ear of ANet by any means, but I'm fairly certain that in the forthcoming rebalance update to occur some time after the conclusion of GWWC, we will see the removal of the Henge Helm and the Henge Sword. Although it's not an apparent bug, like the double haft "hax axe" (likely) was, it has the same end result in terms of gameplay.

*Caveat: the FoW armor with Drok's Knights boots is a good look...I smell a new trend in the coming days....

Jetdoc · Jan 18, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

JR/Phades/sleazeh - I appreciate your very well articulated thoughts.

I was thinking more of balance among characters and their skills in the game, and less about balance among group build make ups. That was the flaw in my reasoning.

Kidney Licker · Jan 18, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

One way to balance this out would be for A.Net to create a Staff Wrapping of Hexes in the next chapter, which I'm hoping they will do to go with the Enchantment wrapping.

My view is that there so many effective hex removal/annoyance skills Natures Renewal, Holy Veil, monk hex removal skills (recharge 5 secs!) that its not really effective to take that many hexes into tombs (for a necro).

CyberNigma · Jan 18, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

As far as equity and balance between what pve and pvp chars can have/get/do (in response to the other reason the item will be nerfed)... well, a step in the right direction would also include the ability for pve-only players not to rely on pvp matches/players in order to get into the pve-only areas such as Underworld and Fissure of Woe. I mean, if the fact that pvp players can't get one object that pve players can without pve'ing is the sole concern for balance, then cry me a river, because that's nothing compared to not being able to enter the end-game areas due to pvp results.

I agree that it will be nerfed though. I don't think it will have anything to do with warriors being unbalanced (real or otherwise) with concern to other classes. I think it will have to do with PvP players complaining about PvE players having something they can't get (helm with hex reduction). We do know that a complaint such as that strikes a chord with ANet. However, going the other way, I doubt any complaints about relying on PvP to access PvE areas will get any kind of response.

I like both PvP and PvE, but many people I run around with don't. Regardless of which you like (or both), PvE having to rely on PvP to access Underworld and Fissure of woe is unbalanced. This is especially so considering it relies on a group of people who may not even care about those two areas (or getting favour). As far as the 'you dont HAVE to enter Underworld or Fissure of Woe' comments, well you don't HAVE to play PvP-only chars in PvP either.

I'm surprised people haven't complained about the +energy shield that PvE'ers can get from the collector near Ascalon that the PvP'ers can't get.

Deathqueen · Jan 19, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Yall keep talking this up I'm making a fortune doing runs for the helm now. lol Even bought 3 for my warrior so now I'll have one for axe, hammer and sword. Great bringing this up OP, many didn't even realize it till you broadcasted it all over the world....good job....I'm gonna be rich.

Ghull Ka · Jan 19, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

As far as equity and balance between what pve and pvp chars can have/get/do (in response to the other reason the item will be nerfed)... well, a step in the right direction would also include the ability for pve-only players not to rely on pvp matches/players in order to get into the pve-only areas such as Underworld and Fissure of Woe. I mean, if the fact that pvp players can't get one object that pve players can without pve'ing is the sole concern for balance, then cry me a river, because that's nothing compared to not being able to enter the end-game areas due to pvp results.

I agree that it will be nerfed though. I don't think it will have anything to do with warriors being unbalanced (real or otherwise) with concern to other classes. I think it will have to do with PvP players complaining about PvE players having something they can't get (helm with hex reduction). We do know that a complaint such as that strikes a chord with ANet. However, going the other way, I doubt any complaints about relying on PvP to access PvE areas will get any kind of response.

I like both PvP and PvE, but many people I run around with don't. Regardless of which you like (or both), PvE having to rely on PvP to access Underworld and Fissure of woe is unbalanced. This is especially so considering it relies on a group of people who may not even care about those two areas (or getting favour). As far as the 'you dont HAVE to enter Underworld or Fissure of Woe' comments, well you don't HAVE to play PvP-only chars in PvP either.

/signed 1000 times.

I really wanted to go do some FoW over the weekend. I couldn't because Europe had favor most weekend. So the results of this PvP contest that I have never had anything to do with determined whether or not I could play the game as I wanted to. Is anyone at ANet going to care for a split second about my dilema? No.

So aye, to all the PvP enthusiasts who are upset because they have to make a PvE toon to use this hat... yeah... cry me a river, too.

In a similar vein, does anyone have a list handy of all the items that are freely available to PvP-Only toons that aren't available from PvE collectors? I seem to recall there being quite a few of them.

JR · Jan 19, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

I agree that it will be nerfed though. I don't think it will have anything to do with warriors being unbalanced (real or otherwise) with concern to other classes. I think it will have to do with PvP players complaining about PvE players having something they can't get (helm with hex reduction). We do know that a complaint such as that strikes a chord with ANet.

How about the fact that balance is an absolutely critical concern in PvP? Without balance the game would become a complete joke. Wheras balance means next to nothing in PvE.

As it stands, if I had 3/4 people in my guild with PvP ready PvE warriors, I WOULD be running a warrior heavy build. Does that sound balanced to you? As for it being something PvP players can't get, that's not really accurate. I couldn't really care less about whether PvE players can get it or not, the simple fact is that its imbalanced in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

PvE having to rely on PvP to access Underworld and Fissure of woe is unbalanced.

Not this has ANYTHING to do with the argument at hand. PvP players doing Tombs couldn't generally care less about whether PvE players can get to Fissure/UW or not. I do however agree that it's not an ideal system, however I couldn't care less about PvE so...

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

They are just about the sole two reasons why people don't run 6 warriors and 2 monks in GvG.

Well it's a little more complex than that. For example, you know your opponent knows that Warriors are awesome too, so you look for ways to break the mirror. Crippling Shot and Traps are a pretty good way, and they're made even better since they can be used offensively to snare Warrior targets as well. So Rangers are good in a trap metagame. Orders and Dark Fury become attractive when you have a whole lot of Warriors as well. Mesmers keep a bit of utility because they can help break Monks and get rid of the rest of the anti-Warrior tools they might have.

So while Warriors and Monks are clearly the dominant metagame there are a lot of niches that pop up to hate out other Warriors and support your own. So the 'best' build is 2 Monks, 3-4 Warriors, and a few support characters designed to make your Warriors better than theirs. Might be a simple metagame but it sure does make for fun gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

How are they going to fix this anyway? Is it in their policy to delete item inside a player's inventory? Or are they going to pray that the older day players quit soon? If they do nerf it now, wouldn't it make a very unfair advantage for the later competetitors (as the earlier player was able to get a hold of this)?

My feeling is that it's too late to pull the item out of people's inventories, there are too many copies that are runed up at this point. Instead, I expect them to take advantage of the ambiguous wording and reduce the effect of the helm, making it still reduce the length of hexes but not nearly as significantly. Once it's balanced in this way it can be added to the other armor crafters and given to PvP characters. As others have mentioned, the option to use an item like this is a good one, it's just that it needs to be nerfed hard to avoid warping the metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

JR - I'm confused - how does the HoD make hexes useless?

Let's go through this stepwise then.

1) Is the duration of a hex an important part of its power level?

Barring a few extreme cases (Rigor Mortis, Lingering Curse), I think this is an overwhelming yes. When people spam Life Siphons around, it's because they last for 25 seconds and will do an awful lot over that timeframe. Illusion Mesmers pump a lot of energy and attribute points into Mantra of Persistence to make their Migraines and Conjure Phantasms last a lot longer than normal. Clearly the duration of a hex is an important part of skill valuation and how powerful a skill is.

2) Does the percieved benefit / power level of a skill affect whether or not you'd use a skill?

Obviously. People use the skills they think will give them the best chance to win, the skills they feel are the most powerful for their character.

Along with point #1, it follows that whether or not you'd put a hex on your bar depends in part on how long that hex might last. A 25 second Life Siphon can be a great use of a skill slot and your energy - a 6 second one is useless, however, and a 12 second one really isn't worth the time and energy.

3) Does the Denravi Helm skew the balance of hexes?

From point #1 and #2, obviously. On simple hexes like Life Siphon, this is clear - a 16 spec Life Siphon cast on a normal target will deal 150 damage and return up to that much life to you over its duration, while against a Warrior with the hex helm the same Siphon will only deal 72 damage - a waste of your energy for the most part. Similarly, Blurred Vision is an attractive Warrior counter, giving them a 50% miss chance for 21 seconds...oh, make that 10 seconds, because of the hex helm. The former, 21 second version is an excellent anti-Warrior skill that punishes Warrior trains. The latter is forgettable and not really worth putting on your bar.

4) Does the Denravi Helm affect the kinds of characters you can play?

Follows from the above. Let's say you want a character in your build who's job it is to screw up Warriors. From all the options available, from Shadow of Fear to Soothing Images to Blurred Vision, you might think that an AoE hexer is a good answer to Warriors. Problem is, all of those skills are, at least in theory, balanced for targets on which they'd last the full duration. Against a Warrior with the hex helm, all of those skills become weak. Why would you play a character who you know will be weak against the very opponents you want him to counter? It's pointless. Anti-Warrior hexers are basically trash in the game right now, thanks to our friend the hex helm.

5) Doesn't the drawback of the Denravi Helm balance it?

Actually this question isn't even relevant, because you don't have to wear the hex helm to benefit from it. See point 4 above. Why would anyone be foolish enough to run an anti-Warrior hexer against you if they can just put on a hex helm and destroy their character? Simply put, they aren't. So your Warrior puts on his weapon attribute helm and plays in a competitive environment that is effectively hex-free because of a helm *that he keeps in his inventory*. On the off chance an opponent is foolish enough to try and shut him down with hexes, the Warrior happily eats the 3.5% damage reduction and trivial amount of extra damage he takes (hard to calculate because of Absorption, Knight's Boots, etc), and ruins the hexer's day.

So the result is simple - anti-Warrior hexes are utter crap because they only last half as long as they're supposed to *at effectively no cost*. They can't kludge around it either because degen hexes have an even bigger problem - they're balanced against non-Warriors, but crap against Warriors, so you can't just up the duration without breaking the game. The obvious conclusion? The helm needs to be clubbed with a nerf bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleazeh

Surely Big McHugelarge (or was it Ima Paladin?) wearing pve armor, carrying a tanzits defender, and having a concealed helm, is not done for vanity reasons.*

We changed characters and roles in and out of our build during the playoffs, but 3 Warriors were pretty consistent. All 3 of our Warriors were PvE characters, and all of them carried four helms - a +weapon attribute helm with a superior weapon rune, a +weapon attribute helm with a minor weapon rune, a hex helm with a super weapon rune, and a hex helm without a super weapon rune. They switched between them as the situation called for. We use PvP characters for everything else (though we're leveling up some Crippling Shot guys for an expanded bow selection), but PvE characters are pretty much a neccessity for competitive PvP because of the hex helm.

Peace,
-CxE

Cybah · Jan 19, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

did u all noticed it's only 20% anymore? :G

CyberNigma · Jan 19, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not this has ANYTHING to do with the argument at hand. PvP players doing Tombs couldn't generally care less about whether PvE players can get to Fissure/UW or not. I do however agree that it's not an ideal system, however I couldn't care less about PvE so...

Actually, it does.. It was used as ammo (a reason) behind part of the argument earlier. And the fact that PvP chars could care less about people getting to Fissure/UW makes the requirement even worse (at least for PvE chars). Some people could care less about PvP (I'm not one of them), so your' last sentence can go both ways.

However, in the end, it only matters whether ANt believes people care about something or not. I think they believe that people do care, hence the statement earlier that it will be nerfed. PvE-only players seem to cry just as much as PvP-only players (reference the crying about the PvP event coming up from PvE-only players), so don't take any of this as a knock on PvP players.

Personally, I think the easiest way to solve these types of problems is to have the guard at the arenas reject PvE chars with non-compatible items at the door to the arena. Then, they can just reject anything that PvP players can't get if they want (equiv stats or lesser). However, that's not to say that they couldn't add a 50% (or 33%) hex reduction helm to pvp players. I mean heck, Minion Factory, Smite Balls, Mass Nukers, Poison/Barrage, as well as others I'm sure, can put some massive hurt onto warrior-heavy builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleazeh

-the fact that this helm, itself, I would argue, overpowered, is available to only pve characters is problematic in terms of equity and balance between the two camps of pvp/pve

EDIT: After reading Ensign's message (which was posted while I was posting mine), I see another nerf coming up in the future as well (or a change somehow): multiple helms/armour sets. After all, PvP -only players can't have multiple helms to change in combat (such as when defending the HoH against various builds) and can only change helms between matches by creating a new character. Without the hex helm, the only way I can see this mattering is with someone having a helm with sup and non-sup to counter dp within the match, but it's something anyways.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Actually, it does.. It was used as ammo (a reason) behind part of the argument earlier. And the fact that PvP chars could care less about people getting to Fissure/UW makes the requirement even worse (at least for PvE chars).

One (stupid) decision has nothing to do with another, completely unrelated item inbalance. I agree with you that the favor system is patently inane, and stated as such when it was first introduced, but that is a subject for a completely different thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Personally, I think the easiest way to solve these types of problems is to have the guard at the arenas reject PvE chars with non-compatible items at the door to the arena.

I think that's a nightmare waiting to happen. It might get lost in the cries from the competitive elite, but the vast majority of people PvPing in this game do so with their PvE characters in Comp Arenas. Try to explain to them that they can't get in because they're using some collector focus they picked up in the desert...it just doesn't make any sense. Those items that cause real imbalances (the SoA Axe, this helm) should and will be obliterated - those that do not matter will continue to not matter and be used. It's that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

I see another nerf coming up in the future as well (or a change somehow): multiple helms/armour sets.

I can see that happening as well, especially as the variety of items continues to grow (I have expectations of chapter 2 throwing us some new curveballs). I don't think it's terribly important now (the hex helm notwithstanding), but it very well could be in the future. Perhaps a better option would simply be to let people roll with multiple armor sets? I really don't know. There is something rather silly about changing your armor instantaneously mid-battle.

As for changing helms to change the runes, there are already players who carry spare minor and superior runes with them on their PvP characters to swap in and out depending on the matchup. You take your superior out against spike but leave it in against pressure, for example.

Peace,
-CxE

Carinae · Jan 19, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

I always hate to post right after Ensign, but....

An alternative to removing the helm (and this has been mentioned before) would be to add a caster item/mod to lengthen hexes.

This has the advantage that nothing needs to be removed an no one angered.

Morangen · Jan 19, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

The problem with this type of game is that while we have lots of different choices when it comes to skills, certain professions generally only use a small number of them, because they have been found to be effective. When I play my war in CA I cant get mad at a ranger because he keeps using his dodge skills to stop my attacks, even though my chances of disrupting it are nil. When I go to fight some monk that has enough healing / protection stuff on him to negate all my damage practically instantly, I cant complain either. They are good builds using what was given them.

When you look at the skill set for a war (the basic war mind you) the ability to heal himself rests mainly on healing sig (which leaves you very open to attack when you use it). Almost all the skills a war gets are basically to do damage in one form or another. There are the tactical skills that block incoming attacks, but almost all of them require you to not use a skill (or non attack skill).

Not everyone War wants to use monk as a second profession just for the hex and condition removal stuff. Not all monks want to bring it along with them to use on the wars. This leaves the war to use alternate means to fight them. And since he cant just go hide up on some hill with a bow or smother his enemies with hexes he needs to have something that helps him out. I think that Anet wanted wars to have the ability to combat hexes. The fact that you can only get it in HoD and that it is not as good all around as the other helms can make up the difference. I am sorry that it makes it harder for necros and mesmers to kill the wars, but it provides a semblance of protection for the war.

If they do need to nerf it then fine, lower the percentage a bit, but dont take it away entirely.

JR · Jan 19, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

An alternative to removing the helm (and this has been mentioned before) would be to add a caster item/mod to lengthen hexes.

So then everyone would run both the lengthen hexes mod on their hexers, and the henge helm on their warriors? Not a brilliant solution.

MMSDome · Jan 19, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

because there are the regular hexes that can be casted on anyone plus hexes like ones that go agaisnt warriros and that specifically destroy warriors. They require better equipment because they are in the center of all battle.

LoneDust · Jan 19, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

did u all noticed it's only 20% anymore? :G

It is still 50% duration reduction.

Seef II · Jan 19, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quick recovery from <condition> is 20%.

wolfy3455 · Jan 19, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Just for fun, lets check out how the henge helm affects warrior hate:

[email protected] attribute:

Glimmering mark[elite]: 8/9secs. 15 sec recharge. 40 E per min maintainance. 7/6 sec downtime.
Grasping earth: 11 Duration. 30 recharge. 22 sec downtime.
Iron Mist: 9/10 duration. 30 recharge. 20 E per min. 21/20 downtime.
Blurred Vision: 11 Duration. 20 recharge. 45 E per min. 9 downtime.
Deep Freeze[damage]: 5 duration. 15 recharge. 100 E per min. 10 downtime.
Frozen burst[damage]: 6 duration. 30 recharge. 30 E per min. 24 down.
Ice prison: 11 duration. 30 recharge. 20 E/m. 19 down.
Ice spikes[damage]: 3 duration. 15 recharge. 60 E/m. 12 down.

Mesmer@ 16:
Note: If you wish to factor in Mantra of Persistance remember to add in an additional 30 E/m.

Empathy: 10/11 Duration. 10 recharge. 60 E/m. No downtime.
Clumsiness: 4 duration. 10 recharge. 60 E/m. 6 downtime.
Crippling Anguish[elite]: 11 duration. 20 recharge. 45 E/m. 9 downtime.
E burden[energy]: 5 duration. 45 recharge. -1 E/m. 40 downtime(lol?).
I burden: 11/10 duration. 30 recharge. 30 E/m. 19/20 downtime.
Ineptitude[Elite]: 5/6 duration. 20 recharge. 30 E/m. 15/14 downtime.
Soothing: 11/10 Duration. 5 recharge. 150 E/m. No downtime.
SoF: 15 duration. 10 recharge. -16 E/m. No downtime.

Necro@ 16:

Faintheartedness: 18/19 Duration. 8 recharge. about 30 E/m. No downtime.
Insidious: 11 duration. 20 recharge. 45 e/m. 9 downtime.
PoF: 15 duration. No recharge. 40 E/m. no downtime.
SoF: 23 duration. None? abou 30 E/m. No downtime.
Spiteful: 11 Duration. 10 recharge. about 90 E/m. No downtime.

Note: The E/m is based off of single target shutdown. The exception, of course, is the AoE hexes.

From the information, I'd say the only class with decent warrior impeding ability would be the necro(this is assuming TGH's skill database is correct). The problem with this is that while they do have the ability to shutdown a single target, the energy cost rises dramatically with each added warrior you need to shut down.

Most of your examples of "similar" abilities are skills. In case you havn't noticed, you only have 8 skill slots. If the henge helm's effect was given by a stance, I'd consider it perfectly balanced. Unfortunately, this effect comes from something you can change throughout the match and doesn't inhibit you very much. Personally, I'd consider using full caster armor to become near immune to shutdown hexes.

Tortoise · Jan 19, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before but I seem to recall that almost every spell in the game focusses it's damage on the chest area (hence the reason why so many monks in the tournament were using tattoos with either wanderers or judges chestpieces).

Because of this the lowered AL of the helm only really factors in when taking physical damage. So is it a drawback? Well, it depends on the situation. Hex heavy teams will only seldom have a lot of warriors or rangers running around and in those rare cases it still be foolish by the warriors and rangers to focus their attacks on the enemy warrior because the chance of hitting the helm are quite small. (what is it? about 13,5% ?). It will still be better for the enemy warriors and rangers to pick on a soft target then to go for the warrior weilding his Lieutanent helm...

So what do you have then? Even in the worst possible situation this helm could be in, the lowered AL doesn't form much of a problem. Every enemy team picking on a warrior because he is wearing the Lieutanents helm is making a wrong choice and to make matters worse: a lot of warriors simply conceil their helm. So, who in their right mind will focus damage on a warrior simply because he might be wearing a Lieutanents helm. Noone...

The situation is severe and this helm is far more overpowered then the HoD sword ever was. I'd go as far as saying this helm is as overpowered as the SoA axes...

Knido · Jan 19, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

i hate to be a hater, but all this has so many simple solutions. hex targets other than wars! unless your running an anti-warrior build, wars should be low on your list to hex. if you do hex a war, find one w/out a HoD helm. and if all else fails, just kite or wand em

also, this may be situation specific, but some hexes benfit like parasitic bond or wastrels worry, incendiary bonds, L surge, even Phantom Pain. also, by posting threads like this, your spreading the word and heightning the cries for nerf.